collectable and growing in value. A FLUID STEEL BARREL IS NOT NECESSARILY STRONGER THAN A What are the illustrated traditions and/or cultures found in the novel "One Hundred Years of Solitude"? The problem here is that not every gunsmith knows what In the USA one man active on websites believes that all Damascus steel barrels are so dangerous they should be destroyed. This further Since then I have been more careful about which doubles I shoot and hurt, but looking at the remains of this gun you knew his injuries had to be What we do believe we’ve proved is that the long-held industry belief that all Damascus barreled shotguns are unsafe to shoot was just a rumor. Some of these early guns Absence of visible pitting is not necessarily a good indicator of structural integrity. standard loads, for many years to come. I would had been using reloads. Well, I would first lost from a damaged eye, so only shoot those guns and loads that were meant left, and the last twelve inches of the breech end of the right barrel was in barrels are marked NITRO they are safe to shoot. The second aspect to check is whether or not the barrels have been dented, or if they have had dents removed. peak pressure. We will focus on the hammerless guns with steel barrels, as there are a number of safety concerns that arise when shooting very old vintage guns. However, considerable expertise, probably beyond that of the average gunsmith, is required to determine which Damascus barrels are safe with such ammunition. Yes, BUT you MUST have it inspected by a competent, qualified gunsmith. chambers and an American shell containing over 55.5 grains or 1 1/4 ounces of There is no reliable or cheap way to test if a Damascus barrel is in "Good condition" or a pipe bomb ready to go off. invest in reloading tools and make up my own loads. The barrel may burst slightly ahead of the chamber, crippling the shooter’s hand or forearm. English steel Siemens - Martin He will then measure the outside of the barrels to insure there shells were the proper length for the chamber. Nevertheless, many of us "old timers" regularly shoot (and hunt with) damascus, laminated, and twist barrels, using special low-pressure handloads. For example, under the 1912 rules, Early Damascus or twist steel guns may be safe to shoot, and there is ample discussion on both sides of that heated debate. German 16 gauge guns marked NITRO were subjected to a proof pressure of Now there was a man who knew his barrels and he was also known for his bone charcoal case hardened colors. Another common response, in the case of foreign proofed doubles, is If the The explosion had separated the right barrel from the barrels, however, are a mass of welds and because of the pattern in them ,it Just to show how safe - and good - damascus barrels can be my 1879 W.R.Pape 12-Bore double barrel hammer gun ( pictured elsewhere ) has had the pitting in the barrels lapped out, the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" and was subjected to a Nitro re-proof at … It is US sizes. Only lead, copper plated lead, or Bismuth. Black Powder shells only. standard of 2 3/4"(marked as 70 on European guns). It is possible that a gun of this age would have been proofed for smokeless powder and have 2 3/4" chambers, but it is more likely to be made for 2 1/2" black powder shells. 12,800 psi. Among the things a gunsmith will do is measure your handle that load. Over the years I have separated a number I would start my loads at I called Martin Rettings, who sell old guns and have for decades from their store in Culver City, CA. Larry Potterfield Columbia, MO Circa 2003 Over the years this expansion and contraction weakens these Yes, they are safe to shoot, but only if: I have been shooting them for years with smokeless powder with lite loads. What is the name of the process of liquid water changing into water vapor due to heating? defunct and records lost. Still EUROPEAN DOUBLES, IF IN GOOD CONDITION, ARE ONLY SAFE TO SHOOT WITH THE thickness of a sheet of newspaper and not detectable by eye alone. English machine forged Best They are just too old and brittle. LOADS FOR WHICH THEY WERE BUILT! despite the dire warnings that it's unsafe to shoot modern loads in Damascus barrels. What about American made guns with They told me that "directly from the NRA" that it is not safe to shoot damascus barrels since there can be microscopic rust that develops within the welds and that all damascus barrels grow weaker and weaker over time. Why doesn’t lightning travel in a straight line? to be used together. Not every gunsmith has all the knowledge required to Of course, you can have barrels custom-made, but why would you want to spend a couple thousand dollars on a gun worth $200 or less? Before shooting one of these guns they need to be examined by a real professional who knows Damascus barrels. There seems to be a feeling they're safe with BP, which I don't believe...I think they're safe if otherwise in good shape with BP … I would like to shoot buckshot atleast. Thirty nine beginning to open up. When they were forged the gunsmiths of the time knew nothing about stress relief or good hammer forging techniques for barrels. BUT THE BEST RESPONSE! This having gotten used to having five fully functioning fingers on each hand, I … of all have the gun evaluated by a competent gunsmith. Damascus barrels have a distinctive, irregular pattern of short, streak-like marks around the barrel. vintage 16 gauge German double that was NITRO proofed and had only 2 1/2 inch corrosion. Also, the average load for a 16 gauge gun in I have one exception to this rule And if properly cared for, I suspect they’ll continue to … A bulge of 0.01" distributed around the circumference of the does anaerobic respiration require carbon dioxide? You'll probably get both sides of the argument on this. Best Grade vs Premium Grade-The Best Grade shells the short shells, 2”, 2 5/8”, 2 7/8” and 2 ½”. shooting glasses when firing these guns. If you want to shoot All safe to shoot in Damascus Barrels. Shot-We DO NOT use steel shot. Internal corrosion within the steel barrels is something you can't determine in a damascus barrel and it can let go if pressure is high. which is the best ss racks manufacturers? As one of the authors of the four pieces. in a hard kicking gun and increased peak pressures. gun a reasonable bill of health regarding its safety, but, not an absolute The top Also, usually the only ones that may be safe to fire are almost always premium grade guns from top manufacturers. I have a double barrel with fluid steel barrels and the 2 1/2 in chambers, shooting skeet the pressures caused the soldering holding the barrels to give way. The forearm wood was a collection of So, what should one do?". you use low pressure loads around 6000 cup or less. They also make the same thing in 12 ga. 2 3/4" loads that are safe in vintage guns. Remember, you can't replace the sight But listen to your elders, boys. I would also make sure that I always wore my is not a problem unless the mating of the barrels and ribs is not airtight. original 2 3/4 " chambers? Problem is that no matter what, the steel isn't tempered like modern steel, and the welds that hold them in place are over 100 years old. anyone knew, the only explanation coming with the gun was that the shooter The late Dr. Oscar Gaddy inspected my first Damascus barreled gun and pronounced it "safe to shoot with loads under 7,500 p.s.i.". I myself love to shoot with Damascus barreled shotguns (sometimes referred to as “twist barrels”) as they always have a great feel to them and are free from the resonance that can cause ‘gun headache’. Does it have hammers? What would I do if I were younger and more adventurous? important to insure that the barrels lock up tightly to the face of the In summary, any double in fine condition is safe to shoot only with the distribution between fluid and composition steel barrels. The most common response is If the barrels are fluid steel it is safe to The book, THE STANDARD DIRECTORY OF PROOF There is a safe solution to get these family heirlooms back into action though. current 16 gauge shell will develop. these heavy loads, make sure the gun you use was specifically designed to guarantee! dimensions. makes one and the average shooter can not afforded those few doubles that are When we handle an old double we often With which I agree, depending on your definition of "modern." about 50% of the equivalent of the proof load given in The Standard How many signers of the Declaration of Independence became president? Damascus barrels, in good condition, should be safe for the loads in which they were originally intended. the two barrels are joined the mating parts are treated with acid to clean I lengthened these to 2 3/4 and fired about a box of low brass If he gun, Vulcan grade. splinters. loads for which the gun was built. high enough to split the barrels. The Premium Grade is the 2 ¾” shells. tells you it is safe to shoot then you can shoot it. acid. the tests conducted by the Birmingham Proof House in 1888. So, I 1993 , and volume 5 issues 1, 2 & 3. spring, summer and autumn 1994, in an Some things that might help to identify are---are the barrels damascus or steel (what does it say on the barrels), what are the lengths of the chambers, what is there for engraving on the sides of the receiver, is it a heavier gun as the Flues models were quite light, what is the gauge. The only sure way to test the soundness of a So be careful with guns with 2 1/2 in chambers. three rods [a composition barrel], 2. What is the sampling distribution of sample means and why is it useful? Some folks will tell you it is safe to shoot black-powder shells in these old and depending on the individual specimen, that may be true. How many novels did Charles Dickens write? insure it is still standard and has not been back bored to remove pitting and in Ilion, N.Y. During one of these visits I was shown a blown up Parker Bros. Or not. The balance of the list showed a similar The most correct response is Let your gunsmith look over the gun. were subjected to in order to pass proof. Steindler state, in the case of German guns, "a shotgun with 2 3/4 inch Polywad makes some also, but I am not familiar with them. I do not, but what remains is that while shooting a Damascus-barreled shotgun requires more due diligence from a quality gunsmith and the shooting of low-compression shells, these firearms are safe to shoot. As a general rule, I no The double barrel shot gun is growing in popularity, now that almost no one Target or club loads may be okay but I wouldn't do it. The one Nobody could tell me how seriously the shooter was Any play here amounts to excessive headspace which results are no bulges. Remington model 1900 double barrel shotgun the barrels are marked kec are these steel barrels … does not exceed peak pressures of 12,800 psi. It will definitely look good hanging over a fireplace though. given to the question "is it safe to shoot?". Ammoland Inc. Posted on May 5, 2009 January 22, 2016 by F Riehl, Editor in Chief The breakdown on my old double barrel is getting loose, or worn, What can I do? After the first box I had second thoughts about what I and it is my French Darne in 16 gauge. barrels. four strongest barrels were, 1. area he can't examine is that under the ribs and between the barrels. incident a couple of years ago changed my mind. The damascus/twist steel barrels are generally considered unsafe to shoot with modern ammunition. You got yourself a Parker Brothers brother. what shells I use in them. handle Magnum or Long Range loads and to use those in these guns is inviting had done and retired the gun and never fired it again. fluid steel barrel becomes safer than the composition steel barrel. Composition the solder. have adopted a rather-safe-than-sorry attitude. article in the Double Gun Journal , volume 4 issues 2 & 3, summer & fall A safe way to shoot them is with brass shells as they are 2 1/2 in length, and are available from Mag-Tec. neither Sherman nor I claim that old Damascus barreled shotguns are safe to shoot; only a competent gunsmith should offer that opinion on an individual gun. This weakens the barrels. 65% of the original proof load. This gun is marked as being double I would not fire a damascus-barreled gun without having it checked and approved by a competent gunsmith (NOT the guy with a key to the gun case at Walmart!). longer fire any double made before WWII. frame just under the standing breach. inspection, I would research the proof the gun had undergone. It is unsafe to shoot smokless powder ammo in a Damascus barrel. standing breech. What we do believe we’ve proved is that the long-held industry belief that all Damascus barreled shotguns are unsafe to shoot was just a rumor. It is also I was using did not develop peak pressures in excess of 8,000 psi. weakens the barrels. fired it expands and then contracts, hopefully, back to its original English fluid compressed steel, This does not mean you can fire any shell in these guns that proofed for black powder, I would only shoot black powder in it. stay away from guns with loose ribs or vent holes in the rib. Is My Shotgun Safe to Shoot? Reactions: Zookini , leadcounsel , Determined and 1 other person Will all damascus barrels eventually fail, no. COMPOSITION BARREL! Pitting to the insides of the barrels can be a problem ( non-corosive ammo is fairly new compared to these pieces) chambers. If you have any worries, though, definitely have a smith (or, at the very least, someone that's familliar with the things) take a look- see. chambers and I had confirmed with the manufacturer that the low brass shells shot for a 12 gauge gun or a 1 ounce load for a 16 gauge gun should not be Do all Damascus barrels fail, no. Whitworth process [a fluid steel barrel], 3. them, and then tinned. However, they were never designed to Older damascus may corrode in between the layers and there is no way to see that just by eyballing it. However, therein lies the problem with Damascus barrels. I would say the chamber inserts are OK for just being able to shoot light loads in a way undersize conversion. What figure of speech is used in the lines "Not yet Rizal, not yet" in Like the Molave? A gunsmith can give your If it's a fluid steel ( as opposed to Damascus) barrel, you should be fine. The force of the explosion had sheared off the right leg of the No one could give me the complete story about what had happened. These guns will probably continue to be safe with I would not fire a damascus-barreled gun without having it checked and approved by a competent gunsmith (NOT the guy with a key to the gun case at Walmart!). forthcoming book, The Parker Story, I was making frequent trips to Remington Do pits forecast impending failure, no. used to have a rather cavalier attitude about shooting old doubles, but an used except in those instances where guns have undergone special proof." My question is: How do I know if it is safe to shoot high brass loads? If it was Damascus barrels are not safe to shoot with any charge due exactly to what C3 said about corrosion unwelding the strands. As far as it was made around the 1890's. Does shooting for years with no adverse affects, mean your gun is safe, no. Apparently the remains had been sent to Remington by someone. Even if the gun doesn't blow up, the pounding of these heavy loads It is possible that a gun of this age … Let's examine some of the standard responses Do Damascus barrel fail because of the manufacture technique, yes. It’s important to note that neither Sherman nor I claim that old Damascus barreled shotguns are safe to shoot; only a competent gunsmith should offer that opinion on an individual gun. the acid residue and create rust. Yes, It is a "Damascus" barrel. There is no way of telling what pressures these Of course I'm not saying that Damascus barrels are 'automatically unsafe to shoot' any more than I would say that a … There is a belief in some quarters that any barrel marked “Fluid Steel” is safe with modern ammunition. increasing loads until a bulge of 0.01 inch or a burst occurred. When a shot gun barrel is Smiths, Ithacas and other And Damascus barrels aren't considered safe. However there is no way to remove the acid between the barrels. proofed, which at the time was a proof of 20,495 psi., far more than any English machine forged laminated steel, in different types of barrels, three examples for each type, were tested with to shoot.. WRONG! process [a fluid steel barrel]. If it passed his The most common response is If the barrels are fluid steel it is safe to shoot and if they are composition, such as damascus or twist, they are unsafe to shoot.. It is only with age that the If a rib should become loose moisture will seep into this cavity, mix with After 67 years of seeing out of both eyes and Not your gun shop down the block, but someone who knows how to do a proper bore inspection with a bore scope and examine the damascus for pitting, etc. Due to the large amount of risk of a barrel blowing up after they said it was OK, and the large amount of technical work it would take for a gunsmith to understand how to judge a Damascus barrel, most give one of four answers: 1) Nope, not safe to shoot in … Back in 1960, when I had a growing family and few dollars, I bought a WWI others may have had a long forcing cone reamed into them. insure your safety. the original factory standards were. those same proof tests today. may have had their chambers lengthened. I'll opine that those 3¼-1¼ loads are probably way too much for a Damascus barrel, but that light target loads might be okay. I recently shot an authentic civil war musket, went dove hunting with a shotgun made in 1902 and regularly shoot my grandpas rifle he bought in 1935. Have it checked out by a good gunsmith to make sure the inside of the action is in good working order, some of the old ones will double when fired. If you have an older firearm and are not sure if it has a Damascus barrel, go to a qualified gunsmith to identify its make before shooting it. NOT ENTIRELY CORRECT, guns were subjected to during proof, as most of those companies are now will cause the gun to shoot loose and stocks to crack. being made.. Old doubles, as we affectionately call them, are increasingly In which country was President Clinton's goal to use force to restore a democratically elected leader to power? Paid it 100$ at a gun show a couple years ago. chambers for length and diameter to see if they are still factory standard. serious. well known makes being shot every day with currently manufactured ammunition. the pre WWII period did not exceed 8,000 psi. The shells from RST for the short chambered 16's are for vintage shotguns and are safe to shoot in either Damascus or steel barrels. In this series he cites Dictionary of Proof Marks. It is relatively easy to remove a dent from a … When With few exceptions (like the Parker story related above), there have been If this is the case, the barrel’s wall thickness has been decreased and the gun is not safe to shoot. John Brindle wrote about this in his excellent five part Better being safe than sorry (losing eye or hand). What are the major problems or issues to the sustainability practices implemented? what is the main lesson can we get from the excerpt one hundred years of solitude? this, I probably would have been safe if the gun originally had 2 3/4 inch If you have a Damascus barrel gun, don’t shoot it. With these considerations in mind, the owner of even a "best quality" shotgun with Damascus barrels should avoid firing the gun with any smokeless powder loads. think, how would it be to shoot this gun, and is it really safe to shoot? assembly placed in a gas furnace to heat the barrels to the melting point of is almost impossible to spot a weld that now has corrosion in it or is MARKS, by Wirnsberger and Steindler give the pressures to which proofed guns He will also measure the bore to Just those knock me on my ****! disaster! The Sears or Ward's hardware store quality guns are seldom safe because they weren't all that well made to start with. Some will say it's perfectly safe to shoot and others will say it is unsafe with any ammo. shoot and if they are composition, such as damascus or twist, they are unsafe The barrels and ribs are then wired together and the There are Parkers, L.C. barrel, and cause for failure in the 1888 Birmingham tests, is less than the The safety of twist and damascus barrels is a complex topic, and not for beginners. I would third the recommendation to have it checked. of barrels and found severe rust and corrosion between some of them. Wirnsberger and Most guns, used extensively over the years, will probably not pass NOT NECESSARILY SO! article entitled BLACK AND NITRO, DAMASCUS & STEEL. I have an old double barrel made in Belgium. Im not sure how to know if the barrel is safe for those hotter loads. I Doubles, early in this century, had chambers that were 2 1/2" long (marked This is not so – it could well have only black powder proof.. I would insure that my Do not shoot modern shells through it. Damascus in 2 rods [a composition barrel], 4. no disastrous incidents. composition barrel is to have it Magna fluxed. ... how tight is the action. with a 65 in the case of European guns) ; later, 2 9/16" and finally today's When cool, the barrels are then cleaned of excess solder and For now I shoot low brass reloads and commercial 7.5. shells in the gun. If you have indicators you should have the gun checked.
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